5

Susanna Millman was my 3rd great grandmother and she married William Creber on 25 Dec 1820 at Marystow, Devon, England.

She is mentioned in Why use name Ebzeebra for Ebbot Millman (nee Martin) on 1840 gravestone at Marystow, Devon, England? which can be considered a complementary question to this one.

That Susanna was the daughter of Ebzeebra/Ebbot and John Millman, and the wife of William is supported strongly by her gravestone which says:

Ebzeebra wife of John Millman of the parish of Coryton Who died the 19th day of December 1840 aged 65 years ALSO of Susanna daughter of the above and wife of William Creber who died the 25th day of May 1834 aged 36 years Where they dwelt in the mortal land

Susanna's parents (Ebbot Martin and John Millman married on 14 Sep 1795 at Beaworthy, Devon and they may have had nine children. However, two of the candidates for Susanna's siblings had a different father named on their baptism records. Images of each of these baptism records, from the parish registers of Northlew, Okehampton and Sydenham Damerel, have been viewed via FindMyPast.

  1. William was baptised on 13 Mar 1796 at Northlew, Devon as the son of John Millman and Ibbett his Wife
  2. Susanna was baptised on 6 May 1798 at Northlew, Devon as the daughter of John Millman and Ibbott his Wife.
  3. John was baptised on 11 May 1800 at Okehampton, Devon as the son of William Milman and Ebbett
  4. Richard was baptised on 12 Sep 1802 at Okehampton, Devon as the son of John Milman and Ebbet
  5. William was baptised on 14 Apr 1805 at Okehampton, Devon as the son of William Milman and Ebbet
  6. Jane was baptised on 1 Jan 1808 at Okehampton, Devon as the daughter of John Milman and Ebbet
  7. Anne was baptised on 18 Mar 1810 at Sydenham Damerel as the daughter of John and Eaditha Millman
  8. George was baptised on 28 Jun 1812 at Sydenham Damerel as the son of John and Eaditha Milman of Lamerton
  9. Mary was baptised on 29 Jan 1815 at Sydenham Damerel as the daughter of John and Editha Millman of Lamerdae in Lamerton

In this question I wish to focus on the third and fifth children above (John and the second William) to try and determine whether they can be eliminated as (half) siblings to Susanna.

Who were the parents of John and William Milman who were baptised 1800 and 1805 respectively, at Okehampton, Devon, England?

  • 1
    I think it is important for you to state your sources for these baptisms – did they come from a transcription, original PRs, BTs, etc? – Harry Vervet Apr 9 '17 at 1:13
  • @HarryVervet I'll double-check but I am pretty sure that I have seen images at FindMyPast from the parish registers for all the baptism and marriage records mentioned above. – PolyGeo Apr 9 '17 at 1:32
  • 1
    I agree with @HarryVervet. It's not enough to say "I saw the records at Findmypast". Knowing what records you saw is an important basis for analysis. See ESM's Quicklesson 1: evidenceexplained.com/content/quicklesson-1-analysis-citation – Jan Murphy Apr 9 '17 at 1:50
  • @JanMurphy I'm saying more than "I saw the records at Findmypast". I'm saying "Images of each of these baptism records, from the parish registers of Northlew, Okehampton and Sydenham Damerel, have been viewed via FindMyPast." For a question like this, when more than a few records are being referred to, I think being too strict on citations risks adversely affecting its readability. – PolyGeo Apr 9 '17 at 2:56
  • 1
    @JanMurphy Actually, I only think that the images are from parish records, and just realized from genealogy.stackexchange.com/questions/9747 that parish registers and bishop's transcripts can look quite similar. Is it worth me asking a separate question on "How to tell if FindMyPast image is from a parish register or bishop's transcript?" – PolyGeo Apr 9 '17 at 4:03
4

The sequence of births seem very likely to belong to a single family. However, I would explore a number of hypotheses by tracing the two Williams (birth 1 and 5) forwards; and also searching for another Milman family in the same parish at the same time (which would require two individuals called Ebbet to be married to two individuals with the Milman surname, which is unlikley but not impossible, especially if you're looking at a small pool of potential marriage partners -- for example two cousins named Ebbet after their grandmother marrying two Milman cousins or brothers).

  1. William 5 was born to the same family after the death of William 1, and the name of his father was incorrectly recorded at his baptism, as you are assuming for birth 3. (As an aside, Occam's razor says you should be looking for a single explanation for both these births at the same time, not parking one on the assumption it's just an error in recording; look at the whole picture).

  2. William 5 was born to the same family as William 1, but given the same name even though his elder brother was still alive. (I've seen this happen in other families -- same name but different 'pet' name to distinguish them.)

  3. William 5 was born to a different family.

Ideally, you'll trace both Williams forward all the way to their deaths but as a minimum look for:

  • burial records between 1796 and 1805 to see if William 5 was named after William 1 died.
  • marriage records for both Williams (early marriages will be in PRs, but if you're lucky there'll be a remarriage for one or both after civil registration began which should give you a father's name.)
  • census records from 1841 onwards (will help identify wives and children, and may show you there were two relevant Williams living parallel lives).
  • birth records for the children of 1 or both Williams (you're looking for naming patterns).
  • birth marriage and death records for William Milman the father of William 5 (can you find any evidence of his existence other than the baptism records).

Suggested by Jan Murphy: As the families are in Devon, there was heavy loss of probate data in the Exeter Blitz, but it might also be worth checking the Devon Wills Index.

  • I think you've suggested a couple of ideas that I had not considered. My plan after asking this was to try and pull together an answer based on my research so far. There's actually two more William Milmans baptised at Okehampton that I'm looking into: another in 1805 (mother Grace) and one in 1807 (parents William and Ann). It will probably be the weekend before I can pull my answer together, and at this stage I think that answer will still have a loose end or two. – PolyGeo Apr 10 '17 at 10:32
  • If we were talking about anywhere else but Devon, I would say that probate records should be added to that list. Is it worth it to add a note about checking the Devon Wills Index? – Jan Murphy Apr 10 '17 at 15:43
  • There was heavy record loss for Devon wills in WWII because of the Exeter Blitz. genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/DevonWillsProject (old) and genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/Probate (new) – Jan Murphy Apr 10 '17 at 16:38
2

I am planning to post separate answers for John and William, because there are several of each baptised at Okehampton in this period. This answer will examine whether John's life post-baptism may shed any light on whether his parents have both been correctly named there.

In the 10 year period either side of 1800 there were four John Milman baptisms at Okehampton, and two more if that period is extended to 20 years. I am not going to extend my search to the surrounding parishes for the moment.

  1. John Milman baptised 4 Jun 1791 at Okehampton to mother Grace
  2. John Milman baptised 11 May 1800 at Okehampton to parents William and Ebbett
  3. John Milman baptised 4 Aug 1805 at Okehampton to parents John and Martha
  4. John Milman baptised 12 Feb 1809 at Okehampton to parents Joseph and Elizabeth
  5. John Milman baptised 16 Aug 1811 at Okehampton to parents James and Elizabeth
  6. John Milman baptised 29 Oct 1815 at Okehampton to parents George and Susanna

The two that I am going to focus on first are the second and third Johns baptised 1800 and 1805 respectively.

On 26 Oct 1826 a John Milman married Joanna Lavis at Sourton and they appear to have had these children:

  • Mary was baptised on 2 Sep 1827 at Sourton to John (Labourer) and Joanna
  • Elizabeth was baptised on 26 Dec 1830 at Bridestowe to John (Labourer) and Joanna
  • John was baptised on 29 Oct 1833 at Bridestowe to John (Labourer) and Joanna; and buried on 27 May 1834, aged 7 months, at Bridestowe

The family appears in the 1841 Census at Bridestowe:

  • John, aged 40, Ag Lab, born in Devon
  • Joanna, aged 35, born in Devon
  • Mary, aged 13, born in Devon
  • Elizabeth, aged 10, born in Devon

If this John was baptised at Okehampton, and if this John and Joanna had no other children it suggests that John named his eldest son John, suggesting that John's father may also have been named John, and there was a John Milman (married to Ebbot) baptising children at Okehampton around that time. The evidence is still very tenuous but I think it suggests that the parents of the John Milman baptised 11 May 1800 at Okehampton were John Milman and Ebbot Martin.

Joanna Milman, aged 37, was buried on 4 Aug 1845 at Bridestowe and it appears that John was re-married to Sarah Gimlet at Exeter Cathedral in Q3 1849. Sarah's father was named as William Lavis so I suspect that John's second marriage may have been to his sister-in-law. William and Sarah Lavis baptised Sarah on 27 Feb 1803 at Exbourne and Joanna on 17 Jul 1808 (born 21 Jun 1808) at Stowford. Sarah's first husband Thomas died at Exeter St Thomas in April 1845.

Sarah and John appear in three censuses, and seem to confirm that this John was the one born and baptised at Okehampton in about 1800.

  • 1851 at Bridestowe - John, aged 51, Lime Burner, born at Okehampton and Sarah, aged 50, born at Okehampton
  • 1861 at Bridestowe - John, aged 60, Lime Quarry Labourer, born in Devon and Sarah, aged 60, born in Devon
  • 1871 at Lewtrenchard - John, aged 74, Retired Quarry Man, born at Okehampton and Sarah, aged 68, born at Oxburn [= Exbourne?], Devon

I have chosen the John baptised in 1800 as being the better candidate for John who lived at Bridestowe than the John baptised in 1805 because the earlier baptism fits the estimated birth years, from successive censuses of 1801, 1800, 1801 and 1797.

I am hoping to include more evidence in this answer to try and refute/support the suggestions that I have made so far.

It is expected that the marriage certificate of John Millman and Sarah Gimlet (nee Lavis) from Q3 1849 (Volume 10 Page 125) may shed a little more light but purchasing this is not within my budget at this time. If it says John's father was not also John then that will modify my above theory.

  • 2
    I'd be careful not to place to much weight on naming patterns - either the presence or absence of certain names in families. While unusual names can be useful to link families, with very common names like John and Martha it's dangerous to conclude anything at all based on the names. Keep in mind that children were often named after unrelated godparents, who might coincidentally have shared names with other family members. This might mislead you into saying "John was named after his father" etc when it might have been his godfather John Smith he was named after. – Harry Vervet Apr 14 '17 at 0:23
  • @HarryVervet I've switched to considering the census birth years considered collectively as slightly stronger evidence for deciding the better candidate. – PolyGeo Apr 14 '17 at 0:36
0

In the 10 year period either side of 1805 there were five William Milman baptisms at Okehampton and Northlew, and no more if that period is extended to 20 years either side. I am not going to extend my search to more surrounding parishes for the moment.

  1. William Milman baptised on 5 Apr 1795 at Okehampton to parents John & Martha
  2. William Millman baptised on 13 Mar 1796 at Northlew to parents John & Ibbett
  3. William Milman baptised on 14 Apr 1805 at Okehampton to parents William & Ebbett
  4. William Milman baptised on 24 Jun 1805 at Okehampton to mother Grace
  5. William Milman baptised on 29 Jun 1807 at Okehampton to parents William & Ann

One William Milman married Betty Newcombe on 19 Dec 1824 at Okehampton (both were Sojourners in the Parish). This may have been the first William above because all but the second one would have been aged 19 or less (potentially old enough but not as likely). Nothing more of William and Betty has been found yet.

The William baptised in 1796 seems to be the easiest one to identify throughout his life:

  • he married Catherine Wearing on 28 Mar 1821 at Stoke Climsland, Cornwall.
  • he and Catherine can be found in four and three censuses at Stoke Climsland respectively:
    • 1841: William 45 Ag Lab (not born in Cornwall, the rest of his household was), Catherine 40, Edytha 15, William 15, Ann 11, Henry 8 and George 4
    • 1851: William 56 Farm Laborer (born Okehampton), Catherine 54, William 28, Ann 21, Henry T 17 and George 14
    • 1861: William 66 Ag Lab (born Bowe, Devon) and Catherine 64
    • 1871: William Millman 76 Farm Labourer (born Milton, Devon)
  • the name of their eldest daughter seems to tie this William, by his age and mother's name, to John and Ebbott Millman because her name was recorded as:
    • Elizabeth (baptism 14 Oct 1821, Stoke Climsland),
    • Edytha (1841 Census at Stoke Climsland),
    • Elizabeda (marriage to Charles Morgan on 20 Mar 1843 at Stoke Climsland),
    • Elizabeth (1851 Census at Stoke Climsland),
    • Elizabeth (1861 Census at Stoke Climsland),
    • Hebzebbeda (1871 Census at Calstock, Cornwall),
    • Elzibeada (1881 Census at Tavistock, Devon) and
    • Hephzibah (death registration in Q2 1884 at Tavistock)

One William Milman was buried on 14 Oct 1825 at Okehampton, aged 20, with his abode given as Meldon, which is a small village close to Okehampton. This would seem to be one of the two Williams born in 1805.

The William baptised in 1807 may be the one who:

  • married Jane Dadd on 20 May 1834 at St Thomas The Apostle, Exeter and had two daughters
    • Mary Ann (baptised 6 Jan 1835 at Crediton) and
    • Jane (baptised 29 Jun 1836 at Crediton)
    • then Jane senior's death was registered in Q4 1837 at St Thomas, Exeter
  • married Sarah Moist (who appears to have been very young from later census records) in Q4 1837 at Okehampton and had three children
    • Elizabeth (1845)
    • Sarah (1850)
    • William Henry (1858)
  • appears in five censuses:
    • 1841 at St Thomas The Apostle: William 30 Ag Lab Devon, Mary 7 Devon, Jane 5 Devon and Ann 60 Devon [could this be William 1807's mother Ann Elliot?]
    • 1851 at St Thomas The Apostle, Exeter: William 40 Ag Lab Oakhampton, Sarah 28 Crediton, Jane 14 St Thomas, Elizabeth 6 St Thomas and Sarah 1 St Thomas
    • 1861 at St Thomas The Apostle, Exeter: William 51 Ag Lab Okehampton, Sarah 37 Crediton, Sarah 11 St Thomas and William H 2 St Thomas
    • 1871 at St Thomas, Exeter: William 61 Ag Lab Okehampton, Sarah 46 Crediton and William H 12 St Thomas
    • 1881 at St Thomas The Apostle, Exeter: William 71 Ag Lab Okehampton and Sarah 56 Crediton

I am not yet confident but my working theory at the moment is that:

  1. William Milman baptised on 5 Apr 1795 to parents John & Martha married Betty Newcombe (no children known, or later details know)
  2. William Millman baptised on 13 Mar 1796 to parents John & Ibbett married Catherine Wearing and led long life mainly at Stoke Climsland, Cornwall
  3. William Milman baptised on 14 Apr 1805 to parents William & Ebbett may have actually been to William Milman and Ann Elliot, and died very young leaving no record, and leading William and Ann to name another child William
  4. William Milman baptised on 24 Jun 1805 to mother Grace may have died in 1825, aged 20, at Okehampton
  5. William Milman baptised on 29 Jun 1807 to parents William & Ann led a long life with wives Jane Dadd and Sarah Moist mostly at St Thomas the Apostle, Exeter.

To summarise I think William and Ebbett in this case should have been written William and Ann.

I have found no evidence of an Ebbett married to a William Millman except in the two baptism records at Okehampton.

On the other hand I feel I have been able to trace much of the life of the William Millman that I think is the man recorded as the father of William (1807), perhaps also the one attributed to William and Ebbet.

  • William Milman was baptised on 23 Feb 1776 at Okehampton to William Milman and Jane Chudleigh
  • William married Ann Elliot on 14 Jul 1802 at Okehampton
  • William and Ann baptised Mary Ann on 21 Sep 1802 at Okehampton
  • William and Ann baptised Maria on 22 Jul 1804 at Okehampton
  • William and Ann baptised William on 29 Mar 1807 at Okehampton
  • an Ann Milman was buried on 21 Aug 1808 at Okehampton but this does not appear to be William's wife because ...
  • William and Ann baptised Jane on 14 Jan 1810 at Okehampton
  • a William Milman married Mary Palmer on 29 Feb 1810 at Okehampton but this could only be the same man if the burial of Ann (above) is that of his wife
  • a William Milman was buried on 24 Jan 1822 at Okehampton

It is expected that the marriage certificate of William Millman and Sarah Moist from Q4 1837 (Volume 10 Page 267) may shed a little more light but purchasing this is not within my budget at this time. If it says William's father was not also William then that will modify my above theory.

Your Answer

By clicking "Post Your Answer", you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.