Many people say that Elizabeth de Burgh, 4th Countess of Ulster married Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence, which I believe could be true but I am yet to see a marriage record for the two. But I want to know whether she married (or also married) Elyas de Richmond. I am pretty sure that Elyas de Richmond (apx 1304-1341) is a son of Elyas de Richmond. Elyas had a son Sir Henry Thomas Webb.

I have had mixed searches on if Elizabeth de Burgh, 4th Countess of Ulster married Elyas de Richmond. The public is split, There are like 20 family trees saying they married and 20 saying the didn't. 5 websites saying they married, 5 saying they didn't. My ancestor is Elyas de Richmond and I would love to know weather he married Elizabeth de Burgh, Because if he did it means I am a descendant of King John. I have been searching for ages and I can't decide whether they married or not. I would love to hear what you think.

  • Welcome to G&FH SE! As a new user be sure to take the Tour. Irrespective, of whether you have evidence for each link in your lineage to Eylas de Richmond, are you able to edit your question to include some evidence for the existence of a person named Eylas de Richmond? I think that should be the starting point to searching for any evidence of his marriage(s). It is the evidence rather than the opinions that I think are more important.
    – PolyGeo
    Jul 24, 2015 at 1:22
  • 2
    Downvoted because the question shows very little research effort. Counting the differing opinions on public trees and websites is not research.
    – Jan Murphy
    Jul 24, 2015 at 5:37

2 Answers 2


In a forum post, Jim Fina notes it is very unlikely that Elizabeth de Burgh, Countess of Ulster, was married to Elyas (or Richard?) de Richmond, because:

  • Elyas (or Richard) de Richmond would have become Earl of Ulster, as Elizabeth de Burgh was the only daughter and heir of William de Burgh, 3rd Earl of Ulster. He did not.
  • Elizabeth de Burgh, Countess of Ulster was married only once to Lionel of Antwerp.
  • Eliabeth, Countess of Ulster had died 11 years before [Richard] de Richmond held lands jointly with his wife Elizabeth in 1372. So she could not be the same person who married de Richmond.
  • If de Richmond and Elizabeth, Countess of Ulster had an affair, then any children would have been illegitimate.
  • There were several Lord Burghs around that time.

And Jim concludes:

I hope there's a lesson here... for someone... that taking information off uncorroborated web pages is basic junk genealogy 101. Don't do it. As tempting as it might be, it leads you to one of two things; an essentially useless collection of names, or a family tree you or someone else will have to break down and do all over again in order to get it right. Anyone who's taken the second path, that is to break down a family tree and do it right, can tell you it's a lot more work than just doing it right the first time. If anyone here has Elizabeth de Burgh, the Countess of Ulster married to a de Richmond, this branch took a decidedly wrong turn and from this point back and does not belong to this Richmond pedigree. But you also have several leads above to follow up on to possibly find out who this Elizabeth actually was. Most of us, we assume, are actually looking for our real ancestors. By finding and using credible, reliable sources and properly citing them, it helps to prove who a particular ancestor actually was.


I was immersed in this quandary too. I am going with Lionel of Antwerp as Elizabeth de Burgh's husband. Philippa seems well attested as the daughter of these two. In addition, the birthdates given for the children of the alternative, seemingly less likely, union, straddle the birthdate of Philippa, which suggests there was neither an earlier nor later other marriage.

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