I've spent a lot of time working on this brick wall and I was hoping for a fresh pair of eyes, heres what I have:
George Juden is my 3rd Great Grandfather, He married Elizabeth Salvage and had five children. His life before this is scattered with conflicting facts and sources which has lead to massive discrepancies between trees on various genealogy websites.
- He was born on 25th June 1843 in Upper Beeding, Sussex, England. His birth certificate lists his parents as John Juden, a labourer and Mary Riddick.
- George was Baptised along with his two siblings, Caroline and Walter on 22 November 1843, the baptism lists them all as being ‘Baseborn’ meaning they were born out of wedlock with the father and are Illegitimate. The only parent listed is Mary.
- Previous to these baptisms there appears six other Juden births to a John and Mary: William in 1831, Jane in 1833, Ann in 1835, Alfred in 1837, Sarah in 1838 and Mary in 1838. Of these William, Jane and Ann died under the age of five.
- Another three Baptism records are recorded in 1841 for a Henry Juden, 1845 for a Frederick Juden and 1851 for a Harriet Juden all to Mary Juden and again all listed as being ‘Baseborn’. Harriet and Henry died in infancy.
- John and Richard Juden were both baptised in 1804 and 1803 respectively in Upper Beeding to James Juden and Honor Roberts.
- James and Honor also had: Mary Ann born around 1800, Hannah born around 1801, Eleanor born around 1805, Harriet born around 1807, Caroline born around 1809 and Thomas born around 1812.
- The 1841 and 1851 Census records list the head of the household as Richard Juden, rather than John Juden, the supposed father.
- Both of these Census records list Mary’s birthplace as Thorpe, Surrey.
- There is a Marriage record for a John Juding and a Mary Riddick in Thorpe, Surrey on 15th January 1825. (There are no Juden/Juding/Judin families living in surrey let alone Thorpe so it is very likely to be them).
- Richard Juden died of Acute Hepatitis in 1851 and was buried 9th April 1851, just ten days after the census was taken. His daughter Harriett was buried four days after that aged 6 months.
This leads me to a few possible conclusions:
- Richard Juden in the census results might actually be John Juden but using his brothers name, what happened to his brother would be a mystery so far…
- John Juden might have died somehow and it either hasn’t been recorded which would be extremely rare or the record has been lost/miss-indexed, or I simply can’t find it, and his brother stepped up to raise his children (and have more with his wife) which wasn’t too uncommon of the time. This seems the most likely.
- Richard could have died early in his life and consequently John might use John or Richard as his first name. The weird thing is George Juden was born in 1843 yet Richard is the head of the household in 1841. So either John wasn’t living with his wife and his brother was, but they were still intimate or Richard is the real father(or again they are the same person so it doesn’t matter)
- Very very unlikely but, John and Richard could be the same person although I don’t know how there would be two baptism records.
This 1840 Death Record for John Juden is not the correct one as the certificate lists his age at death as 76. This is at least 30 years older than the John Juden I’m looking for. (This is the same death in a different collection with the birth date on)
This could be a possible record as his father was called James and he died four years before.
Another possible death however I’m not sure why he would have been in Hackney, London.
At the moment I cannot find a death that makes sense for John Juden. This would theoretically need to be between 1837 and 1841 based on the baptism records of his children.
My question is, Who are the parents of George Juden?
Chronological order of information as requested by @PolyGeo
John Juden + Parents + Siblings
27 August 1799 - Marriage - James Juden & Honor Roberts
17 August 1800 - Baptism - Mary Ann Juden daughter of James & Honor
19 July 1801 - Baptism - Hannah Juden daughter of James & Honor
24 April 1803 - Baptism - Richard Juden son of James & Honor
15 January 1804 - Baptism - John Juden son of James & Honor
26 November 1805 - Baptism - Eleanor Juden daughter of James & Honor
22 December 1805 - Burial - Eleanor Juden
29 March 1807 - Baptism - Harriet Juden daughter of James & Honor
3 January 1809 - Baptism - Caroline Juden daughter of James & Honor
7 January 1812 - Baptism - Thomas Juden son of James & Honor
20 January 1812 - Burial - Honor Roberts/Juden
23 January 1812 - Burial - Thomas Juden
George Judens Immediate Family
15 January 1825 - Marriage - John Juding & Mary Riddick
13 September 1831 - Baptism - William Juden son of John & Mary
18 September 1831 - Burial - William Juden
14 October 1832 - Baptism - Richard Juden son of John & Mary
7 December 1833 - Baptism - Jane Juden daughter of John & Mary
25 January 1835 - Burial - Jane Juden
26 April 1835 - Burial - Ann Juden
25 June 1837 - Baptism - Alfred Juden son of John & Mary
Q4 1837 - Birth - Sarah Juden
Q4 1837 - Birth - Mary Juden
Q1 1838 - Death - Ann Juden
16 September 1838 - Baptism - Sarah Juden daughter of John & Mary
16 September 1838 - Baptism - Mary Juden daughter of John & Mary
1841 Census - Richard Juden(45), Mary Juden(30), Richard Juden(9), Alfred Juden(3), Mary Juden(3), Sarah Juden(3), Walter juden(1), Caroline Juden(1).
13 May 1842 - Baptism - Henry Juden son of (Fathers name 'Not Given') & Mary
22 May 1842 - Burial - Henry Juden
25 June 1843 - Birth - George Juden (Time recorded 11am possible twin?) son of John Juden & Mary Riddick
22 October 1843 - Baptism - Caroline Juden daughter of Mary (Baseborn)
22 October 1843 - Baptism - Walter Juden son of Mary (Baseborn)
22 October 1843 - Baptism - George Juden son of Mary (Baseborn)
Q4 1845 - Birth - Frederick Juden
25 December 1845 - Baptism - Frederick Juden son of (Fathers name 'Not Given') & Mary
4 November 1849 - Baptism - Elizabeth Juden daughter of (Fathers name 'Not Given') & Mary
5 January 1851 - Baptism - Harriet Juden daughter of (Fathers name 'Not Given') & Mary (Baseborn)
1851 Census - Rich Juden(52), Mary(48 Born in Thorpe, Surrey), Rich(19), Alfred(16), Mary(14), Caroline(11), Walter(11), George(7), Fred(5), Eliz(3), Harriet(6 Months).
5 April 1851 - Death - Richard Juden
9 April 1851 - Burial - Richard Juden
1861 Census - Mary Juden(54 Born in Thorpe, Surrey), Walter Juden(21), Frederick Juden(15), Lucy(Actually Louise) Holder(24 Walters Wife).
Any help is massively appreciated, however big or small.
I bought Henry, Elizabeth, Harriet and Frederick Juden‘s birth Certificates seen below:
Elizabeth Juden Birth Certificate
Harriet Juden Birth Certificate
Frederick Juden Birth Certificate
Every one of the children’s birth certificates say that John Juden is the father.
I’ve also looked at transcripts from the Upper Beeding Parish Registers(On CD transcribed by www.sfhg.org.uk from originals) and made a timeline of the children’s marriages:
13/06/1857 – Sarah Juden married Charles Town. In Upper Beeding parish records Richard is listed as BF(Brides Father).
28/10/1860 – Richard Juden married Bengemina Muzzell. In St Andrews Hove parish records John is listed as GF(Grooms Father).
25/12/1860 – Caroline Juden married John Boyde. In Upper beeding parish records Richard is listed as BF. (Walter Juden(Carolines Brother witness)
25/12/1860 – Mary Juden married Charles Hobbs. In Upper beeding paris records Richard is listed as BF
1861 – Walter Juden married Louisa Holder. In Upper beeding parish recrds Richard is listed as GF. (Caroline Boyde(Walters sister) + John Boyde(her husband) witnesses)
25/05/1862 – George Juden married Eliza Salvage. No father listed.
25/12/1866 – Frederick Juden married Ann Emily Laycock. In St Andrews Hove parish records James is listed as GF(Grooms Father).
Q2 1882 – Elizabeth Juden married Thomas Brackley.
The children seem to have different opinions as to whom their father is compared to their birth certificates. At this point in time I believe that the children’s parents are as follows:
John Juden & Mary Riddick:
Richard Juden & Mary Riddick:
After getting in touch with Steyning Museum one of the researchers there said she knew of a lady that did research on every family that lived in Upper Beeding since 1550 and that when she died, her massive collection of notes was given to an archive that she has a contact at.
After a few emails she sent me 5 pages of notes on the Juden family. Most of it I already have (Baptisms, Marriages and Burials) but one part caught my eye and is the biggest breakthrough in this brick wall... Below are the pages... On page 4 it mentions a Vestry record entry which states: "Resolved that if Mrs John Juden encourages Richard Juden to come to her house, her pay is to be taken off, which is 3|= per week".
So it seems there was a bit of a love triangle between Mary and the two Juden brothers! I've ordered a death certificate from 1859 for a John Juden which I'm hoping will be his now that it's a lot more likely that he left the home rather than died, I'll update when I get it.