I've spent a lot of time working on this brick wall and I was hoping for a fresh pair of eyes, heres what I have:

George Juden is my 3rd Great Grandfather, He married Elizabeth Salvage and had five children. His life before this is scattered with conflicting facts and sources which has lead to massive discrepancies between trees on various genealogy websites.

  • He was born on 25th June 1843 in Upper Beeding, Sussex, England. His birth certificate lists his parents as John Juden, a labourer and Mary Riddick.
  • George was Baptised along with his two siblings, Caroline and Walter on 22 November 1843, the baptism lists them all as being ‘Baseborn’ meaning they were born out of wedlock with the father and are Illegitimate. The only parent listed is Mary.
  • Previous to these baptisms there appears six other Juden births to a John and Mary: William in 1831, Jane in 1833, Ann in 1835, Alfred in 1837, Sarah in 1838 and Mary in 1838. Of these William, Jane and Ann died under the age of five.
  • Another three Baptism records are recorded in 1841 for a Henry Juden, 1845 for a Frederick Juden and 1851 for a Harriet Juden all to Mary Juden and again all listed as being ‘Baseborn’. Harriet and Henry died in infancy.
  • John and Richard Juden were both baptised in 1804 and 1803 respectively in Upper Beeding to James Juden and Honor Roberts.
  • James and Honor also had: Mary Ann born around 1800, Hannah born around 1801, Eleanor born around 1805, Harriet born around 1807, Caroline born around 1809 and Thomas born around 1812.
  • The 1841 and 1851 Census records list the head of the household as Richard Juden, rather than John Juden, the supposed father.
  • Both of these Census records list Mary’s birthplace as Thorpe, Surrey.
  • There is a Marriage record for a John Juding and a Mary Riddick in Thorpe, Surrey on 15th January 1825. (There are no Juden/Juding/Judin families living in surrey let alone Thorpe so it is very likely to be them).
  • Richard Juden died of Acute Hepatitis in 1851 and was buried 9th April 1851, just ten days after the census was taken. His daughter Harriett was buried four days after that aged 6 months.

This leads me to a few possible conclusions:

  • Richard Juden in the census results might actually be John Juden but using his brothers name, what happened to his brother would be a mystery so far…
  • John Juden might have died somehow and it either hasn’t been recorded which would be extremely rare or the record has been lost/miss-indexed, or I simply can’t find it, and his brother stepped up to raise his children (and have more with his wife) which wasn’t too uncommon of the time. This seems the most likely.
  • Richard could have died early in his life and consequently John might use John or Richard as his first name. The weird thing is George Juden was born in 1843 yet Richard is the head of the household in 1841. So either John wasn’t living with his wife and his brother was, but they were still intimate or Richard is the real father(or again they are the same person so it doesn’t matter)
  • Very very unlikely but, John and Richard could be the same person although I don’t know how there would be two baptism records.

This 1840 Death Record for John Juden is not the correct one as the certificate lists his age at death as 76. This is at least 30 years older than the John Juden I’m looking for. (This is the same death in a different collection with the birth date on)

This could be a possible record as his father was called James and he died four years before.

Another possible death however I’m not sure why he would have been in Hackney, London.

At the moment I cannot find a death that makes sense for John Juden. This would theoretically need to be between 1837 and 1841 based on the baptism records of his children.

My question is, Who are the parents of George Juden?

Chronological order of information as requested by @PolyGeo

John Juden + Parents + Siblings

  • 27 August 1799 - Marriage - James Juden & Honor Roberts

  • 17 August 1800 - Baptism - Mary Ann Juden daughter of James & Honor

  • 19 July 1801 - Baptism - Hannah Juden daughter of James & Honor

  • 24 April 1803 - Baptism - Richard Juden son of James & Honor

  • 15 January 1804 - Baptism - John Juden son of James & Honor

  • 26 November 1805 - Baptism - Eleanor Juden daughter of James & Honor

  • 22 December 1805 - Burial - Eleanor Juden

  • 29 March 1807 - Baptism - Harriet Juden daughter of James & Honor

  • 3 January 1809 - Baptism - Caroline Juden daughter of James & Honor

  • 7 January 1812 - Baptism - Thomas Juden son of James & Honor

  • 20 January 1812 - Burial - Honor Roberts/Juden

  • 23 January 1812 - Burial - Thomas Juden

George Judens Immediate Family

  • 15 January 1825 - Marriage - John Juding & Mary Riddick

  • 13 September 1831 - Baptism - William Juden son of John & Mary

  • 18 September 1831 - Burial - William Juden

  • 14 October 1832 - Baptism - Richard Juden son of John & Mary

  • 7 December 1833 - Baptism - Jane Juden daughter of John & Mary

  • 25 January 1835 - Burial - Jane Juden

  • 26 April 1835 - Burial - Ann Juden

  • 25 June 1837 - Baptism - Alfred Juden son of John & Mary

  • Q4 1837 - Birth - Sarah Juden

  • Q4 1837 - Birth - Mary Juden

  • Q1 1838 - Death - Ann Juden

  • 16 September 1838 - Baptism - Sarah Juden daughter of John & Mary

  • 16 September 1838 - Baptism - Mary Juden daughter of John & Mary

  • 1841 Census - Richard Juden(45), Mary Juden(30), Richard Juden(9), Alfred Juden(3), Mary Juden(3), Sarah Juden(3), Walter juden(1), Caroline Juden(1).

  • 13 May 1842 - Baptism - Henry Juden son of (Fathers name 'Not Given') & Mary

  • 22 May 1842 - Burial - Henry Juden

  • 25 June 1843 - Birth - George Juden (Time recorded 11am possible twin?) son of John Juden & Mary Riddick

  • 22 October 1843 - Baptism - Caroline Juden daughter of Mary (Baseborn)

  • 22 October 1843 - Baptism - Walter Juden son of Mary (Baseborn)

  • 22 October 1843 - Baptism - George Juden son of Mary (Baseborn)

  • Q4 1845 - Birth - Frederick Juden

  • 25 December 1845 - Baptism - Frederick Juden son of (Fathers name 'Not Given') & Mary

  • 4 November 1849 - Baptism - Elizabeth Juden daughter of (Fathers name 'Not Given') & Mary

  • 5 January 1851 - Baptism - Harriet Juden daughter of (Fathers name 'Not Given') & Mary (Baseborn)

  • 1851 Census - Rich Juden(52), Mary(48 Born in Thorpe, Surrey), Rich(19), Alfred(16), Mary(14), Caroline(11), Walter(11), George(7), Fred(5), Eliz(3), Harriet(6 Months).

  • 5 April 1851 - Death - Richard Juden

  • 9 April 1851 - Burial - Richard Juden

  • 1861 Census - Mary Juden(54 Born in Thorpe, Surrey), Walter Juden(21), Frederick Juden(15), Lucy(Actually Louise) Holder(24 Walters Wife).

Any help is massively appreciated, however big or small.

Edit/Update 1:

I bought Henry, Elizabeth, Harriet and Frederick Juden‘s birth Certificates seen below:

Henry Juden Birth Certificate Henry Juden Birth Certificate

Elizabeth Juden Birth Certificate Elizabeth Juden Birth Certificate

Harriet Juden Birth Certificate Harriet Juden Birth Certificate

Frederick Juden Birth Certificate Frederick Juden Birth Certificate

Every one of the children’s birth certificates say that John Juden is the father.

I’ve also looked at transcripts from the Upper Beeding Parish Registers(On CD transcribed by www.sfhg.org.uk from originals) and made a timeline of the children’s marriages:

  • 13/06/1857 – Sarah Juden married Charles Town. In Upper Beeding parish records Richard is listed as BF(Brides Father).

  • 28/10/1860 – Richard Juden married Bengemina Muzzell. In St Andrews Hove parish records John is listed as GF(Grooms Father).

  • 25/12/1860 – Caroline Juden married John Boyde. In Upper beeding parish records Richard is listed as BF. (Walter Juden(Carolines Brother witness)

  • 25/12/1860 – Mary Juden married Charles Hobbs. In Upper beeding paris records Richard is listed as BF

  • 1861 – Walter Juden married Louisa Holder. In Upper beeding parish recrds Richard is listed as GF. (Caroline Boyde(Walters sister) + John Boyde(her husband) witnesses)

  • 25/05/1862 – George Juden married Eliza Salvage. No father listed.

  • 25/12/1866 – Frederick Juden married Ann Emily Laycock. In St Andrews Hove parish records James is listed as GF(Grooms Father).

  • Q2 1882 – Elizabeth Juden married Thomas Brackley.

The children seem to have different opinions as to whom their father is compared to their birth certificates. At this point in time I believe that the children’s parents are as follows:

John Juden & Mary Riddick:

  • William
  • Richard
  • Jane
  • Ann
  • Sarah
  • Alfred
  • Mary

Richard Juden & Mary Riddick:

  • Walter
  • Caroline
  • Henry
  • George
  • Frederick
  • Elizabeth
  • Harriet

Edit/Update 2:

After getting in touch with Steyning Museum one of the researchers there said she knew of a lady that did research on every family that lived in Upper Beeding since 1550 and that when she died, her massive collection of notes was given to an archive that she has a contact at.

After a few emails she sent me 5 pages of notes on the Juden family. Most of it I already have (Baptisms, Marriages and Burials) but one part caught my eye and is the biggest breakthrough in this brick wall... Below are the pages... On page 4 it mentions a Vestry record entry which states: "Resolved that if Mrs John Juden encourages Richard Juden to come to her house, her pay is to be taken off, which is 3|= per week".

So it seems there was a bit of a love triangle between Mary and the two Juden brothers! I've ordered a death certificate from 1859 for a John Juden which I'm hoping will be his now that it's a lot more likely that he left the home rather than died, I'll update when I get it.

Page1 Page 1 Page2 Page 2 Page3 Page 3 Page4 Page 4 Page5 Page 5

  • My impression is that Richard Juden is the likely father of the illegitimate children, and I think it quite unlikely John was the father. In the eyes of the law, the father of a married woman's child was her husband (whether or not that is actually the case), so that might explain why the father is erroneously given as John on the birth certificate. They may also have been just covering up the illegitimacy. John may or may not have been alive still, but in any case it was illegal for a woman to marry her brother-in-law.
    – Harry V.
    Oct 6, 2015 at 13:05
  • @vervet Thanks for your input. I agree that Richard Juden is the father of the illegitimate children. As for the Illegality of marrying a brother in law, George Juden's son Albert Joseph, married George's other son, my 2x great grandfather James Walter's widow. So it could run in the family... As for the certificate.. imgur.com/a/0fgAh Here is George's Marriage, George's Birth and Sarah Juden's birth. I don't think there is any doubt that Sarah and George are brother and sister.
    – Danny B
    Oct 6, 2015 at 13:13
  • Interesting, the twins(?) Sarah and Mary may actually have been children of John, since they are recorded as such on their baptisms. I think the birth certificates of any of the other illegitimate children could be useful, but it might be an expensive way to solve this, so perhaps see if anyone else has better ideas first. Also, in case you aren't aware I noticed that there are children James (1825) and John (1827) both baptised at Thorpe, Surrey, who you did not mention.
    – Harry V.
    Oct 6, 2015 at 13:43
  • Ahh I hadn't seen those two in Thorpe. Thank you for that. John seems to have just dropped off the face of the planet...
    – Danny B
    Oct 6, 2015 at 13:50
  • 1
    @user3310902 That John Judin married at Wiston (see FamilySearch) and his father was William Judin. The censuses suggest he was born c1817 - so not the same John Judin.
    – Harry V.
    Oct 7, 2015 at 21:42

1 Answer 1


Looking over the question and your tree on Ancestry, one fact jumped out at me. When you look at the profile of Mary's husband, the John Juden b. 1804, you have only one record type -- the marriage banns for the 15 Jan 1825 marriage of John and Mary in Thorpe, and the various Baptism/Christening records of the children which you've noted in your question.

There is a tendency for people doing research in England to leapfrog their way through the generations by linking up census records and BMDs. Usually what happens is that we get to the 1840s and then hit the proverbial brick wall because we don't have census records before 1841 nor civil records before 1837. Now you are trying to soldier on bravely with only the baptisms, marriages, and burial records to sustain you. Here are a couple of things you can do to get a fresh approach:

Location, Location, Location

If you haven't done so already, I suggest that you make a fresh survey of the areas in which this family lived, with an eye toward finding what records about the area have survived. See Determining what records are available in a particular locale? for a longer discussion of how this might help you.

Make a locality research file for yourself by collecting resources about the area. Have you looked for your place using the historical map resource at http://maps.familysearch.org/? Have you looked for a page on GENUKI? Is there an online parish clerk (OPC) for that area? Have you looked up your place at A Vision of Britain? Have you looked for the websites of local archives? Have you searched for the place on ArchiveGrid, WorldCat, or at TNA's Discovery Catalog?

Widen Your Search

Have you done a place search in the Family Search catalog to see what records might be online, or available via FamilySearch microfilm? Search the records you already have for clues. As I write this, you've presented a group of baptisms with no mention of what parish the records come from. Could there be other records for that parish, like parish chest records, which might have information pertaining to this family?

You haven't mentioned whether you've looked for probate records, or area directories, or whether you've looked for your locality or family in the British Newspaper Archive, Google Books, the Internet Archive, Hathi Trust, or the British Library.

You've done a lot of work collecting records about people with the Juden surname, but you haven't said how much you know about the women in these families. Their records are hard to come by, but see what you can find. You might find valuable clues in the records belonging to their fathers and brothers.

Have you studied the neighbors? Sometimes we can find records about our research subjects by searching on the names of their neighbors and schoolmates.

Go Forward instead of Backwards

This seems counter-intuitive. However, sometimes when you are looking at the records of a person's children, you can find clues which might have been missed, such as information about their aunts, uncles, or grandparents. These small details may not answer your question directly, but taken as a group, they can point you in the right direction. It also helps to have different surnames to search for, to get around the problems of bad indexing or unexpected spellings of the surname you're looking for.

I found one obituary because I was looking for records about her son-in-law, because her daughter was listed as Mrs. (followed by her husband's name) as one of the survivors.

More recently, I confirmed my hypothesis about a woman's relationship to her family by finding her father's probate record. He had left part of his estate to his grandchildren (her daughters) and her two brothers were the executors. I had been fairly sure the three kids were siblings but this one probate record was the keystone that allowed me to link the family from the 1880 Census record with all the records dated 1900 and afterwards.

In other cases, a 'lucky dip' in a newspaper that gave news about married daughters visiting allowed me to link the right siblings together.

You've made a good start with trying to collect all the material you can about these Juden families. Now take this skeleton and see what you can do to flesh out the bones. Work outwards in small steps, and see what information and connections you can find, no matter how trivial the information seems to be. You never know which record will be the "aha!" discovery until you make it.

Especially when you have kids who are baseborn, it helps to study the entire community (or neighborhood, if you're researching a city).

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